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The entrepreneur who built his business and sold it for 30 million dollars

I invited a cool friend of mine, Alvin, co-founder of Vodien Internet Solutions, to have a chat with me.

He built his business from ground up and sold it 30 million dollars.

Alvin’s story might sound like your typical Rags to Riches story but in reality there is a lot more to the process than what we see on the surface.

Which is why he now dedicates his career to providing value to entrepreneurs of different levels to upscale their businesses.

Transcript:

David: Hi guys, I have today with me, Alvin Poh, He’s the co-founder of Vodien.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Vodien Internet Solutions.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Yeah, and he’s not only focused on Vodien, right? There is other things that you’re doing right now?

Alvin: – Right now, yeah, I’ve pivoted a bit.

David: – Yeah Mr. Alvin Poh has exited his business already.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Is that the right word to use? Exit?

Alvin: Yeah, exit. It’s an acquisition that happened a while ago, around 2017.

David: – 2017?

Alvin: – Yeah. And it was for a sum of $30 million?

David: $30 million is a lot of money. What do you do with it?

Alvin: – I just invest the money, I guess, cause I realise that, I don’t really have a lot of

things that I want to buy.

David: – Ah, okay.

Alvin: – I had a whole… all those things I kept buying stuff.

David: – Yes, that was before the acquisition.

Alvin: – Yeah, it was leading up to the acquisition, I guess. Even after the acquisition, I did buy stuff also.

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: – I bought the Lotus, the blue Lotus.

David: – Yeah, I want to talk a lot about the things that you bought, what happened to you, and I don’t know, you’re living a very extreme life, to me. It’s quite extreme, I mean, given that fact, if I got like $30 million, I don’t know, man, what would I do, I’m just thinking, cause my staff, What we do with $30 million? You don’t know? – I don’t know, I think you’d buy a lot of skateboards, right? I don’t know, like for $30 million, I think I probably retire, and I’ll struggle to find meaning in life, I’m not sure.

Alvin: – I went through that phase.

David: – Really?

Alvin: – Yeah, yeah.

David: – So, because you had Lamborghini before, then you sold the Lamborghini away.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: Then you also have Lotus.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David:- Which also the Lotus is gone.

Alvin:- I had an orange Lotus, it was a 111R and then I sold it off and I got a Lamborghini Gallardo

David:- Yeah. 

Alvin: – To replace it. And then I sold it off, had no car for one year, and then decided maybe I should get a Lotus again, cause I mean, I love that car, it’s the driving experience that I mean, I really like it. But then after that it’s like, I think the same problems occurred again.

David: – Right, so Lotus or Lamborghini?

Alvin: – For me, I still like the Lotus a lot. – A lot more?

David: – A lot more, why?

Alvin: – It’s a very engaging drive, it’s just like manual gear sticks and drive experience that’s, like, different from any other car. Then, I mean, to give you perspective, right? The aircon is an option.

David: – Oh, wah? 

Alvin: You actually can choose, do you want an aircon, that comes with the car.

David: – So it’s more like a track car, you would say?

Alvin: – Yeah, for sure, it’s very hardcore.

David: – Okay. In Singapore, no aircons, I think- yours is with aircon or without aircon?

 Alvin: Yeah, it does come with aircon. In fact, sometimes I wish it was like gulf spec, (laughs).

David: – Oh, okay, okay.

Alvin: – The aircon isn’t very strong and-

David: – Okay, yeah, 

Alvin: So it’s like, there or not there.

David: Okay, so Alvin also has a Wikipedia page, so if you go and search Alvin Poh, Singapore, I did that search by the way. Alvin Poh, Singapore, has only one, Wikipedia: Alvin Poh.

Alvin: – Just do Alvin Poh.

David: – Alvin Poh I think, yeah. So I’m just not sure, so to be frank with viewers right now, to be frank, I don’t know, he’s my friend, I have no idea what really to ask him, but I just thought that, it’s very in line with what we do also in real estate. First in his book, he has a book, by the way, it’s called, “5 Proven Principles I Used To Super Scale My Business to $30 million, a long title, (chuckles). So these five proven principles I read through this book and I find this amazing is actually given inside the link below. If you look at the description of this video, you’ll find the link where they can download the book over there as well, and then you can get to know Alvin better, so if you’re somebody who runs a business, especially, then I think you definitely need to talk to him, right. So I’m going to just exploit from him today, I think that’s what I’m going to do and see what I can dig-

Alvin: – (laughs), I love your terms.

David: – Yeah, see what I can do to get all this information out of him so that I can super scale my business as well, to $30 million. I think it’s $32 million, it’s doable. So after you sell Vodien away, what are you working on?

Alvin: – I actually was lost for a while, so in 2017 July, I sold the business, I stayed on for one year,

David: – 2017 July, wow.

Alvin: – And I left officially in July of 2018.

David: – Oh, okay.

Alvin: – So after that I was lost for quite a bit. And I left the country, I decided to travel full time, and because of that, I decided to sell everything also. I literally sold everything I had.

David: – [David] Wow.

Alvin: – Car, apartment, all my stuff, the junk that I have at home, everything that I had in my life could fit into two luggages and my snowboard.

David: – Is there a psychological medical term for this known as Post – Acquisition. – No, post acquisition, depression or something, Right? It seems like there is something like that. I don’t know.

Alvin: – I wouldn’t say that I was depressed, thankfully, but it definitely gave me a lot of clarity and perspective. It made me question, like why I had all these things because like when I was running my business, I guess I was focused on the business, and everything else was just like a distraction.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And I guess like society says, “You should buy this, you should buy that,” and that’s what everybody did, that’s what I did as well.

David: – Me too.

Alvin: – And I was just caught up into it. I had a wardrobe that was huge, in fact, I wanted a bigger

wardrobe, wanted a bigger shoe closet as well.

David: – Shoe, yes.

Alvin: – But, (laughs), yeah, buy more shoes, buy more stuff, have variety and all that.

David: – And you left the country?

Alvin: – Yeah, before I left, I was like, I was so lost i was like, I had all these things then I realised I had to like had a space to store them, I had to like manage them. I’d like to keep track of everything, and it was just, just a lot on my mind that I didn’t enjoy. And so then in the end I realised, there was no point, and I got rid of everything. And for a while I embraced the identity of a minimalist.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – Which was useful because when you are travelling around the world, it’s great if you just have like a backpack and everything fits in it.

David: – Right, so which country did you first travel to?

Alvin: – Uh, I think I went to Mongolia.

David: – What?

Alvin: – So this is like I think it was November,

David: – Camels?

Alvin: – Well, think of horses more, horses, sheep, goat–

David: – Genghis Khan. – Genghis Khan, whoa.

Alvin: Land of Genghis.

David: Whoa, yeah. – Cool. So what do you do there, like for how long?

Alvin: – Try to survive, I guess, (laughs). Okay, so if I were to look at it and if I had areas of improvement, right, I would say that, in the future, I wouldn’t go to Mongolia, in the winter.

David: – Oh, very cold?

Alvin: – It was like -30°C. (both laugh)

David: – Okay.

Alvin: – So I remember that like–

David: – Free cryonics for you, everyday.

Alvin: – Okay. – It was terrible.

David: – Cryotherapy, man.

Alvin: – Yeah, I definitely go on weeks full of it.

David: -30°C?

Alvin: – It was so bad that- So again, this place has no reception cause I was in the middle of the Gobi Desert,

but I’ll still have my phone and take photos and all that. So when I took out my phone, I could see the battery levels drop.

David: – Oh, because of the cold.

Alvin: Yeah, because it was so cold, the batteries will start dying.

David: – Your existential crisis is very, very serious.

Alvin: (Alvin laughs) – It’s not a crisis. I just wanted to explore it. have you ever been to the desert? I have not, so I’m like, okay. And it wasn’t me thankfully, I had a friend who was like, “Hey, you’re not doing anything, right, you wanna go to the desert?”, I mean, she’s quite adventurous and all that, so I’m like,

David: “Oh yeah, okay.”

David: – Okay, wow, so you went to Mongolia?

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Did you sit on a camel?

Alvin: – No, we only sat on horses, but apparently the, so it depends, right, we were attached, we were living with nomadic families and I was living with one, but that family didn’t have horses. Yeah, but they have a cow, they have many cows.

David: – You sit on a cow?

Alvin: – No, but there were many cows, there were many cows.

David: – Cool, did you milk the cow?

Alvin: – Yeah, I tried, I am bad at milking cows. And I think that takes a lot of skill. – I think there is a motion to that.

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: So they were really nice about it, they even, at the end of our trip with them, right, they even slaughtered the cow. It’s not specifically for us, but because it was a really old cow and they were planning to do that sooner. They figured that it was a good time for it. So in front of my eyes, I saw them slaughter a cow, and in one hour, they butchered up everything.

David: – Damn.

Alvin: – The whole cow, and the cow’s massive, it’s.

David: – Did you cry when they killed the cow?

Alvin: – No. I don’t think they have any reaction at all. In cold blood, just-

David: – Yeah. Do you still eat beef?

Alvin: – Yeah, I mean I did like just in an hour.

Alvin: – We went to (have) Bak Kut Teh. – Yeah, I mean, after the slaughter, they immediately, the like, – It was there, now it’s here.

David: Okay, so cool, Okay, well, so after that country, where do you go?

Alvin: – I have a long list. So it wasn’t a very well-planned thing, it was just like, “okay, let’s go,” I especially wanted to visit friends that I haven’t seen.

David: – Friends, okay.

Alvin: – Friends that I’ve not visited for a while. Like one of my good buddies, like in the US, in California, I have not seen him nor his family for years, because who wants to go to the US and spend like-

So for me, it’s the jet lag that’s the main problem. I don’t want to travel all the way there, face the jet lag and then come back in a week.

David: – Cool, okay.

Alvin: – So this was a great time for me, I visited him, stayed with him for a while and his family.

David: – So when did you come back? Like a lot of countries that you went to, right? I mean, based on your Instagram, I think you went to the whole world.

Alvin: – Yeah, pretty much around a whole world, but not every country, I think I only went, I didn’t really count, but I have a list. I don’t really remember the number.

David: – You fly business or economy?

Alvin: – I even fly Ryanair

David: – Oh, okay.

Alvin: – And you should see a plane that flies to Mongolia.

David: – Damn, what? Propeller?

Alvin: – Yeah, twin-props.

David: – Okay. So if it fails, you’d die?

Alvin: – Apparently, twin-props aren’t that bad, like, apparently, you can actually fly with one prop.

David: – Then if two fail then just let it in.

Alvin: – I think so, yeah.

David: – Hmm, I don’t know, man, I haven’t reached that stage yet. I wish that I can one day exit for $32 million, then I go to Mongolia, and then -30°C. And after that, visit my friends in the US, which I don’t have any, I don’t have any friends. Frae, can you go to the US and stay for two years, then visit you two years later, when I exit my company for $32 million. I’ll find you, don’t worry, I’ll definitely come find you. Okay, so after that you come back to Singapore, when do you come back to Singapore?

Alvin: – Also, it wasn’t a full two years that I spent overseas. I spent like three months and now come back for a week, I would refresh my luggage or settle any errands or any documents or whatever it is I need to do in Singapore, and then after that, I’ll fly again.

David: – Wow.

Alvin: – And I kept doing that for about 2 years.

David: – Okay, and that is until 2019?

Alvin: – No, this year. I came back in March.

David: – So if COVID-19 did not start, you wouldn’t be here?

Alvin: – No, actually I already had plans to come back to Singapore.

David: – Really?

Alvin: – Yeah, I needed to find a base,

David: Okay, this is one of the things that I think, like little Tolstoy, said the best. “Mankind has a desire for desires.”

Alvin: – Right. – And there was something that I felt very keenly when I was travelling, I think I was searching for something or searching for purpose, and it was again, another distraction, the distraction was literally travelling and keeping myself busy, so I wasn’t bored. Everyday, I had a routine, especially if I was in a place for a long period of time, like in Poland, I was there for a month, I had a routine. I’ll wake up in the mornings, I’ll get my coffee, I’ll go to the gym, I’ll go grocery shopping, I’ll cook lunch, and then I’ll start like either reading, writing, or watching videos, trying to learn stuff and stuff, or hanging out with my friends also.

David: – Wow.

Alvin: – So, I mean, I wasn’t bored, or I didn’t have anything to do. But mostly when I’m there, I think on a macro-level, there wasn’t a purpose to all of that. And so I had the desire to actually want to do stuff again, and so that prompted the decision to come back to Singapore, making my base again and then like to start something.

David: – But why Singapore, like so many different places that you went to, is Singapore still the best?

Alvin: – Well, it was not necessarily the best, I guess. I mean, best is very, very subjective, but for me, I guess it was convenient. Everything that I had was here, my friends, family, network, connections–

David: – Minus the Lamborghini, minus the Lotus. – Minus all of that – yeah, and I also know that you have donated money.

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – $250,000?

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – $250,000, that’s a lot of money. So you donate back to your alma mater.

Alvin: – Yes, to SMU. Singapore Management University.

David: – Your success today, do you credit that to SMU?

Alvin: – The thing is I don’t think 100% our successes can be credited to one particular thing.

David: – Exactly.

Alvin: – But for me, I’m very, very thankful that SMU gave me the opportunities that they did.

David: – Okay.

Alvin: – I wanted to go overseas and no university at that point in time couldn’t give me that opportunity. And I remember going to the school of Information Systems in SMU and they had a programme, where you do two years locally in SMU, and then you do another two years in Carnegie Mellon. And that to me was something that I’ve never experienced in my life. 

David: – So that opened a lot of things. 

Alvin: – That definitely opened my eyes to a new, different kind of worldview, to a new way of living, to new friends.

David: – You know the difference between you and I? The big difference. I went to, you never study. So I never studied, I didn’t go to a university, I went to you never study. And that’s why, I also think like the main difference really, that’s why you are you, and I am I. Otherwise, I can also donate $250,000 back to my alma mater.

Alvin: – So the thing is, I think there’s a difference between education and knowledge.

David: – Huh?

Alvin: – Yes, so what I was thankful for, yes, I mean the two years, for sure, or the four years, I’m very thankful of that, but more so than that was like, and that’s why I say, I think the worldview was more important, the fact that I actually lived in a different country and experience a different kind of lifestyle.I think that was something that was much more important to me than the stuff that I could or the stuff that I learned in school.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – That to me was secondary.

David: – Yeah, I know, but at the end of the day, I think it’s still the process that you have gone through.

Right, that everything adds up together, that eventually you can actually grow a company. How many people was that? 150 people?

Alvin: – 150.

David: – Yeah, that is actually quite a lot of people, actually. 150 people, the lunch a day alone is going to cost everybody about, if it’s $5, it’s $750, that’s lunch alone. It’s quite a big company, so, I know that right now you’re living quite a minimalist lifestyle.

Alvin: – Right.

David: – And I don’t know. What’s your table like? I mean, I saw the table, it’s like a round–

Alvin: – Yeah, it’s a small coffee table.

David: – You can afford a better table, right? Like why would you not buy a better table?

Alvin: – Well, this is the thing, so there is a, this-

David: – You got $15 million, you got cash bro.

Alvin: – Yeah, but it’s not about the cash or the money, it’s about like being intentional. So for me, for a while, I was like for the 2 years, even nowadays, I basically just, every time I think about stuff, I go back to the intent. What is your motive, what’s your intent? And you’re like mindful of all you’re doing, right? Why are you buying a table? Is it just because you can, or is it because you have a real use for it? For me, I try to understand my use and purposes and for a really long time, I just used the coffee table. And that actually was really,

David: – Super unproductive, isn’t it?

Alvin: – It wasn’t the most productive, but one thing that I learned from that, is that table height really matters. For a long period of my life, I always had shoulder pains whenever I walked at a desk.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – I couldn’t understand why because my chairs, they were decent, and then my tables, they were like, I do office quality or good quality stuff.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And I didn’t understand why, and then I realized that table heights are usually at about 75 centimetres in Singapore, yeah, it is a standard height, right?

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: – It’s actually too high for me, I actually work better at about 65 centimetres.

David:- Oh, okay.

Alvin: – So I only realised that when I did not have a desk and I realised that I actually had to use a table, a coffee table, and then I realised, oh, once my arms come down a lot more, and they’re not like constantly scrunched up.

David: – Oh, that makes sense.

Alvin: – So that was one of the revelations that I had in my life. I thought that was standard, right, like, this is what people use, this is what must be the case. Now, I realise it has to be a lot lower for me.

David: – No, like, there could be a, your next project, man. Create tables that are- Office. Like the legs are high but the– Ergonomic table that you can…so that makes sense, yeah.

Alvin: – To me, the standing desks that are around, I think those are great, cause they let you like try out a variety of heights.

David: – Okay, so above that one, right, just now we spoke about that, I think you saw my table. My table is the adjustable-height one, right.

Alvin: – Yeah, Omnidesk.

David: – Omnidesk. 

Alvin: Buy Omnidesk.

David: – I thought about it for a long time, before buying a table, right, because I’m very mindful about spending actually.

Alvin: – Right.

David: – So basically, this table that you’re seeing here,

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – They’re all from Taobao.

Alvin: – Wow!

David: – Yeah, yeah, so this table only cost about $200 or something like that.

Alvin: – Shipped?

David: – Yeah, it is huge. And all of the other tables are all from Taobao, right. Frae, your table is from Taobao, right. So the whole set everybody, right.

Alvin: Frae’s sad now. – She thought it was like Herman Miller or something- Oh no, no way.

David: Then when I decided to buy that table, it’s like, that table is like $800. Right. I thought for damn long, like, I think I thought for like at least one week, and then every day you cannot sleep because of the table. Serious…serious. And I realise that actually it’s a super waste of time. Just buy it, then I realised how stupid I was, you know, thinking about, “Should I buy, should I buy?” So I think that table, let me warn you though, right now you’re sitting down, right?

Alvin: – Hmm.

David: – When you work. So there’s this tray below, the engine of the, right?

 

Alvin: – Yeah, yeah.

David: – That is going to eat a lot of space, so your leg cannot, yeah, you can try from my office, yeah, your leg cannot really go in all the way if you put it to 65 cm, I don’t think it can.

Alvin: – Okay, okay.

David: – Then you cannot fold your leg.

Alvin: – Okay.

David: – Awkward then you have another problem. It’s called DVT, Deep Vein Thrombosis.

Alvin: – Oh my God.

David: – You sit down there and you cannot move, after that you go to the hospital.

Alvin: – Oh my God.

David: No lah, just joking. 

Alvin: Okay, 

David: So the minimalist life that you have right now has led you to a very simple life.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – And I think as a result of that, your money can last for several lifetime. Right, so I know one thing, that is your shoe.

Alvin: – Yes, yes.

David: – About this shoe ,I have seen at least 10 times in different postings, different articles about this man, different podcasts, I think even, that has only one shoe, but there’s one thing that, none of these people, one pair of shoe, none of these people have done one thing, and that is to ask you to take off this shoe, to show to the camera.

Alvin: – Okay.

David: – So for the first time, can I request that your shoe is taken off so that we can show the camera?

Alvin: – Yeah, for sure.

David: – What the hell, how does the shoes $30 million look like? Let me hold it. Adidas.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Stan Smith, endorsed by…- There’s even a face there.

Alvin: – Yeah, Stan Smith.

David: So apparently if you want to feel good, No lah, I can not smell anything. Yeah, but, this one can last for how long? Like how long have you been wearing this?

Alvin: – I don’t know but this has been around the world, so this has been used, I think it’s been used for about two years, all around the world, I went up mountains.

David: – In Mongolia?

Alvin: – No, this didn’t go to Mongolia.

David: – Oh, okay, so this is after Mongolia?

Alvin: – After Mongolia.

David: – Yeah, it looks like it has been well-worn.

Alvin: – It is, it is.

David: – Yeah, so how much did you get the pair of shoes for? Stan Smith, Adidas Stan Smith.

Alvin: – Probably about $100-ish.

David: – I think it will sell out tomorrow. I think like when I published this video, right, then people be like,

“eh I want to be like Alvin Poh.” You go and buy the Stan Smith Adidas, then become limited edition. Stan Smith then collaborated. Then it becomes like Adidas X Alvin Poh. Wah, cool. Then put your face there. Endorsed by Alvin Poh.

Alvin: – Went around the world.

David: Actually, our good friend Jeremy is over there at the corner, spying on us. Okay, so that is the shoe, all right, so finally for the first time in the world, if you’ve never seen his shoe before, that is his shoe.

Alvin: – Yeah, I mean, I love it, I use it for the gym, I use it for hiking, I go out with it.

David: – Jogging?

Alvin: – I don’t really do cardio.

David: – Oh, you don’t do cardio?

Alvin: – Yeah, but you definitely can use it for jogging, I mean like light jogging, these are like supposed to be tennis shoes.

David: – Okay, okay.

Alvin: – But it comes with a flat base, so I do like deadlifts and squats with it as well, and I use it for meetings and speaking also, so everything.

David: – You mean you go to a restaurant with this as well?

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Okay. I’ll kick you out, man, like, the shoe is so dirty. what the heck. Okay, cool, well, very unassuming, right, no Rolex watch?

 

Alvin: – No watch.

David: – No Richard Mille?

Alvin: – (laughs), no.

David: – Oh, damn, I think, if I were him, I’d buy my Richard Mille, but I think the same ah. I think I’ll change my life. That’s why I’m wearing like, I have got expensive watches, but I don’t wear them anymore. Cool, so the news here says that Dreamscape buys Singapore firm for $30 million, This is Singapore dollar or what?.

Alvin: – Hmm, yes Singapore dollar, yes.

David: – Okay. – Well, I’ve read this ebook and I find that We have seen a lot of people who have proclaimed that they are X-figure business owners, right, recently, especially, but for one I have in front of me, somebody for a body from 0 figure, to 6 figures, to 7 figures and 8 figures. How do the Vodien come about, like how did it happen?

Alvin:- Well, I started the company with my co-founder when we, I mean, we were the same age and we were actually classmates, back in Temasek Polytechnic.

David: – Wow, Okay, so this begins from polytechnic?

Alvin: – Yes. So when we were 17, I mean, him and I come from the same kind of background, our families weren’t very well to do and so we had to find our own like allowance and pocket money.

David: – Does he have an existential crisis, like you?

Alvin: – He seems pretty okay with his life. He has a family and all that, so yeah.

David: – Okay, so the same background and all that. And what made you want to like, are you a programmer or?

Alvin: – Yeah, I’m a tech person by trade, I’m not as good as a lot of like, Jeremy’s like awesome, I know some programming, especially since I haven’t really touched it for many years now, but back then I used to do a lot of PHP. I started learning from Java, I did all the scripting as well, and that was one of the ways I started. I started off because I was interested in MRIC.

David: – IRC?

Alvin: – IRC.

David: – Damn, okay, cool, wow, that was holy long ago.

Alvin: – Yeah, that was about 30 years ago.

David: – Huh? 30…

Alvin: – I started when I was like in primary or secondary school, I think secondary school, so about, yeah.

David: – 30 years ago?

 

Alvin: – Oh, okay, 20 plus.

David: – 30 years ago, if you are in secondary school, then you’re 40 plus, I don’t think you’re 40 plus.

Alvin: – I’m 36.

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: – So 20 plus it’s about, yeah.

David: – I’m a programmer also.

Alvin: – Really?

David: – Yeah.

David: I started with Neopets, then I-MARquee, bro, MARquee.

Alvin: What’s MARquee?

David: The text will—Marquee tag

Alvin: – Oh yeah, yeah.

(David laughs)

Alvin: – Jeremy’s laughing.

David: – Edit, view source, edit and then like change some of your variables and so on. – Yeah, so I’m an HTML

coder, I know MARquee. iFrame, I know iFrame.

Alvin: Strike through.

David: I can put image SRC, bro.

Alvin: Yeah, bro, well, that’s damn good.

David: – HREF, bro.

Alvin: – Wow, solid.

David: Yeah, these 3 to 4.- But I’m a programmer also, not bad. So when do you decided, when

you started this company, was called Vodien, to begin with?

Alvin: – Yes, but Vodien was actually a web design company. So the reason why we started was because I already was a freelance web designer.

David: – What!

Alvin: – And yeah, I started off as a freelance web designer when I was in secondary school, and after that, when I went to polytechnic as well. And that was how Vodien started, I told my friend, you’re doing part time work as well, and part time jobs. – I remember we were like, IT, like technicians, we helped companies set up their desktops, and all of those things.

David: – You set up, (laughs).

Alvin: – You set up desktops, – What the hell. – Those part timers that will go to the office and then you like manually load a CD and then install stuff.

David: – Wow.

Alvin: – So we do things like that.

David: – And you pivoted into a web host company?

Alvin: – Yeah, eventually. – Actually, I find that so-called exit is extremely timely, now we have AWS.

David: – Yeah, there was AWS back then.

Alvin: – Oh right, 

David: But now it’s like more disrupted than last time I think. 

Alvin: Like any other industry, it constantly evolves. – So if anything, people are more and more aware of the internet and people are more and more aware of things like e-Commerce, websites and stuff.

David: – I’ve been in e-Commerce since 2008, man.

Alvin: – Right, yeah.

David: – So that’s why I say I donate a lot. I mean, to your company, and I think we have contributed to a significant amount, no less than $5000, really, no less than $5000, confirm,

Alvin: how much for a month?

David: Actually I can’t remember how much, but I know more or less than $5000 for a long time, like 10, 12 years.

Alvin: – Cool.

David: – So how did it become what it became? Like scaling, right, because you said in your book, you mentioned scaling and growth, so yours is scaling, right?

Alvin: – Yes, yes, for sure.

David: – Since you started from creating websites for people, designing and you go and set up computers for other people.

Alvin: – Yeah. – But that was a part time job, so from the part time job, we realised that, it was like

time management was a problem because as a student, you can’t just go set up computers for people to get part time jobs, as and when you want.

David: – Was it very profitable? Like setting up a computer for people?

Alvin: – It was a part time job, so we were paid per hour. It was like $6, $7 an hour or something?

David: Oh ok.

Alvin: So that’s why we were like, “Okay, so we need better time flexibility, like maybe more money as well.”

And that was when I told him, “You know what, I’m doing freelance web design on the side, why don’t we partner up and then we can take on bigger projects, more clients and stuff together?” And so that’s why-

David: – For how long by the way, for how long do you do like the website creation, like design?

Alvin: – On a freelance basis, I think I started when I was in like Sec 3 or 4, like when I was 15 or 16.

David: – Entrepreneur, man.

Alvin: – Oh yeah, I think being an entrepreneur is basically being someone who’s like driven by something, right? And for me, it was just the need to have pocket money, right?

David: Okay.

Alvin: – So we did it and then after we got together, we then set up a sole proprietorship and then we started doing freelance web design. That lasted for a while and eventually it spun off and pivoted into a web hosting company.

David: – Okay, so the web hosting is the one that really took off?

Alvin: – Yeah, yeah.

David: – Okay, so when you scale, right, because I think, right now you’re doing something different, right?

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – Just talk a bit about that as well.

Alvin: – Sure.

David: – You’re helping business owners or, to grow their business or something like that?

Alvin: – Business owners, entrepreneurs who are finding themselves stuck at the growth stage, right. And they’re lacking the processes, the systems to get them to actually scale. So I’m a very systems-driven kind of person, I think like systematically, I apply systems thinking to what I do.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And this is the way I’ve been able to scale the company up, and so for these past few months, I’ve been actually coming up with the methodology that I used.

David: – Personally used, in the past.

 

Alvin: – To scale my business up, and what are the areas I was looking at, what sequence in order should I be looking at things? And that’s why I came up with the 5E scale engine. These are the five principles that I used.

David: – Right, right, so the 5E Scale Engine, Evolve, envision, empower, engage and execute.

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – What you did is kind of like, you just document down there the processes that you have in the past used to grow Vodien from what, a web design company all the way into– to pivot into a web hosting company. – And then scaling up from there.

Alvin: So it wasn’t a very clear cut thing, first of all, I have to understand why I did the things I did. And so you see on the left, I actually started off with a like mindset.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – It’s like– I always tell people it’s like a horse race, who or what wins the horse race, isn’t just the horse, it’s also the jockey that’s like controlling the horse, who is on the horse, that’s like an entrepreneur, and then a horse is like the business. 

David: So the entrepreneur is kind of like the visionary or something like that? 

Alvin: He has to have a vision, he doesn’t necessarily need to be super disruptive or super innovative.

David: Like Steve Jobs.

Alvin: Yeah it doesn’t need to be like that, doesn’t need to be like Elon Musk.

Alvin: – Elon Musk, other level.

David: – Yeah, yeah, okay, about this 5E scale engine, I actually look at this business, right. Because there are different things that really attract me into it, can you just kind of like just explain what’s man and machine?

Alvin: – So that’s when I talk about the difference between the entrepreneur and the business that he’s running. Because people always focus on the business.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – But I believe, and I know that you cannot have, say a 7, 8-figure business, if you are not a 7, 8-figure CEO. If you are stuck at the 6-figure mark and 5-figure mark, and you have that mindset, you’re never ever going to progress your business because you are not there yet.

David: – So what’s the difference between a 6-figure and 7-figure, and 8-figure CEO?

Alvin: – So even the way you think, it has to be different. Like for example, in a 5, 6-figure business, it’s usually just you take on multiple roles, and you handle everything, so when you look at something that needs to be done in a business, it’s usually, “How can I handle this, how can I do this better? How can I solve this problem?”- As for 7-figure, 8-figure, it’s more of like— But when you shift to a 6, 7, 8-figure entrepreneur or CEO, you start thinking, “How can we solve this problem, how can we do this better? How can we fix this,”

David: – Right?

Alvin: – It shifts from being a solo-preneur, solo-person, and having you as the bottleneck to something that involves a team of people, a team, an organisation. And that’s why in the principles, the empower part is literally the first principle that comes after evolving after envision, your team is your extension. You’re going to have to communicate with them, you’re going to get them to achieve this vision that you have.

David: – So you’re hiring a lot of top-level people, Is that what it is, or?

Alvin: – So that’s something I talk about also in both my playbook and masterclass.

David: – Right,

Alvin: We’ll talk about the masterclass later.

David: Sure, what is the A-star here?

Alvin: I think that’s the problem that gets people confused and gets people distracted. An A-star person for you or for me, or for somebody else is completely different.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And depending on what role he or she is hired for, that definition of A-star here also will change. And so one of the things that entrepreneurs need to focus on is really the definition of things. What is it that the role requires? What is it that the entrepreneur thinks is necessary for that role, because even though, like, for example, if both of us run companies and both of us say, maybe we need a sales person, I can guarantee you what you want, and what I want from the sales person is going to be completely different.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And so one person who comes in to apply for the role for each of our companies, I could think that maybe that person is the A-player and you might think that person wouldn’t cut it, so it boils down so much onto the definition, the requirements.

David: – But is there a definition on your side, like what constitutes an A-player or?

Alvin: – No, so that’s the thing, I bring entrepreneurs through the process, figuring out what values are important to them. – What are the responsibilities you need in that role, what are the expected deliverables? Because once you have that, right, then you can go find someone else.

David: – Right, okay.

Alvin: – What person to fill that role.

David: – Role, yeah.

Alvin: – So people always like copy and paste job descriptions, people think that they know what they want, but they do not. And so once you have that in place, that takes care of the hiring. So then I talk about, when you hire, next, you need to retain, you need to grow the person, you need to train the people on your team. 

David: So regarding that, how do you retain, like you increase salary or what do you do, like?

Alvin: – I believe that salary is a- It’s an ideal factor. It’s not the most important thing that people are looking out for. Yes, you must be market rate, right, that’d be good. But on top of that, people are looking out for purpose, autonomy, mastery, and without these three things, right, like all of these three things, soon you’ll feel like, their jobs, you find that what they are doing is not being appreciated, nobody recognises them-

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: -And that’s where you have a situation and that’s when you have people leaving and that’s where you’ve people not performing also. This way is, it’s not just one point that we are looking at. Like, everything I do is very, very holistic. And these are the areas that we need to look at when we talk about, this essentially is company culture also. And once you have that, then you start building up a really good like hiring process.

David: – Yeah, personally, I think I know like whatever you put inside his book, I believe 100%, you know why? I’d have a friend who is more successful than you are. Except for a property agent, my very good friend. Yeah, but other than him, which is a super, he’s one is another kind, I think a, like over here, you’re thinking about how you leverage on the processes, I’d say, right?

David: – Yes.

Alvin: – Over at his side, I would say, I think it’s less of that. It’s really about 1 person, an chiong (rush) in real estate. – Because real estate is really chiong, just chiong, chiong, chiong. Yeah, I think that at the end of the day, a business is… What is the business? I think the founder must be able to step out, and the business still runs.

Alvin: – Exactly.

David: – I think that’s what the business is about, right?

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – Otherwise you’re a worker.

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – I think that’s what they always say. And I think for me personally, right, it is about identifying the process, right. Just to share a bit, I also run businesses, but they are… how to say They’re not connected, like different businesses, for different reasons. When I started my escape game business, it was purely because I felt like it was a very profitable business, so I went and started that business, right.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – And it is indeed profitable, but not to that kind of extent that I thought it’d be profitable. After launching that particular business, I think I also entered into an existential crisis for a time, for a period of time, because I was drawing passive income from a business, and I didn’t really work during that period, and after that I came back and I became a coach for real estate agents. Similar to what you do in masterclass, right?

Alvin: – Right.

David: – I also have a coaching business, which, I wouldn’t call it business more like a mentorship programme that help property agents do things, give them direction give them the process in which I used in the past to use, to create income, like very substantial income for real estate agents, and especially today when the commission is a lot higher.

Alvin: – Right.

David: – For them, they are very profitable doing that. And then much recently, I have UpLauncher which is like a platform and all kinds of things. So I think what I’m doing right now is a lot more linear, but I just want to clarify a mentality that I have, I don’t know whether it’s right or wrong, because I don’t know whether it’s under scale or is it under growth, but my mentality is a company is not supposed to be profitable because profits are taxable. So if you reinvest all the profit into the company, then it will not be taxable. I mean, I’m just thinking in the angle, right. So what my problem is, I cannot reinvest the profit back into the business fast enough because the process does not allow it to do so.

Alvin: – Hmm.

David: – Right. That means like, if I put more money at this point in time, I will not have enough clients to use this thing, these people that I hire or something like that. So what are your thoughts on that, like, is it true, like my mentality is wrong or?

Alvin: – Well, I think tax is necessary evil, I think it’s a business cost.

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: – So I don’t see taxes as a necessarily bad thing, or not I do, I like let’s say, stop me from doing the things that I want to do.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – If I want, so first of all, businesses have to make profit. And that’s something I agree with you on. And on top of that, I think because of that, to extract the profit of a business, tax is a necessary cost, so that’s something I’m fine with as well.

David: – I’m fine with that. But what I’m saying is that, for the money that is profitable from the business, right?

Alvin: – Yeah. 

David: – I’m always thinking of how can I reinvest in the business,

Alvin: – Yeah, sure.

David: – And it’s kind of like the government giving you a discount of like 15%, company is 15%, right? – So it’s kinda like giving you a discount to use that money to grow a business, so that’s why I’m thinking about it all the time, but I’m not sure, so you’re saying that actually you were not as a result of the tax and try to reinvest the money back.

Alvin: – I wouldn’t reinvest it because of tax, I’ll reinvest it because I have a strategy that I want to like, put money to work for, and then that will be something that’s in line with my vision. So that’s something that I think makes sense. – I think the key thing is also identifying the process.

David: – Yeah. I think it is not easy to identify the process and scale on that particular process. Is that what you actually help entrepreneurs do? Like identify the process for them? – 

Alvin: I think when people start looking at the day to day work, they get very confused, they get lost and there’s a tendency of pursuing next shiny object, which going to be very detrimental to overall progress, because you might get caught up with something and you get lost and it might be profitable, but it will take you away from your bigger vision.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And that’s why I’m alluding to. There must be a bigger vision to why and what you are doing. Because that’s gonna be what causes and empowers you to say no to things that are profitable, things that are attractive, things that are interesting.

David: – When you started Vodien, what was your vision then?

Alvin: – So when we were right at the start, all we wanted was to be profitable, to make money -To survive.

David: – Survive.

Alvin: – Right -That was all. That was literally what we were, because we were just students, a couple of broke kids, just wanted pocket money. But when we launched Vodien, we realised, “Oh wow, so many people, the customers, they really relied and trusted us with our business services.” And that got us to evolve the vision that we have.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – We realised, we really want to do that. We want to… Because mind you, we started Vodien knowing the problems that the industry faced, we our customers ourselves, hosting customers, and then we said to ourselves, “Okay, let’s do hosting,” because we knew that we could do a better job. And so we did, we created a company we focused on– At first, it was providing good customer support. And then a vision evolved, as more and more people relied upon us, we realised that that wasn’t enough, so then we focus on speed, security and stability also. So there are four pillars that Vodien used to focus on. And that was a promise to our customers. So anything that we did in our company, no matter what it was, investments, or no matter whether it was like people or processes, it had to impact one or more of these pillars.

David: – Right, so it’s kinda like the starting point is mostly like the customer giving them a better experience that kind of thing?

Alvin: – Right, yeah, So we kept that always in mind that the customer was the main reason why we existed.

David: – You’re like Jeff Bezos. Jeff Poh

Alvin: oh cool – Yeah, exactly, the mentality? About Jeff Bezos.

Alvin: – I think it’s the exact same thing. And I think businesses that focus a lot on their customers normally win a lot.

David: – Yeah.

Alvin: – They’re really the reason why your business exists to provide that kind of value for your customers.

David: – Correct, correct.

Alvin: – And so if you do that really well, then yeah.

David: – One more thing before we talk about the master classes, growth versus scale. Under what situation can a company go on a scale path instead of a growth path?

Alvin: – I think the question should be more of like, how can a business get out of -Growth path. Because a lot of people, it’s easy to- the main difference between growth and scale is the ratio of your revenue versus your expenses.

David: – Okay.

Alvin: – Right, and in a growth stage, it really is a parallel line.

David: – Yeah, you’re right, okay.

Alvin: – But for a scale business, you want to break their ratio, so that your revenue increases, your expenses, they’ll still increase, but it will increase slower. Right, that’s how we can actually scale. Businesses which are service oriented, businesses that are maybe just starting out, businesses that have poor processes, they are usually in a growth stage, because you’re just throwing money at it. You’re either hiring more or you are spending money just trying to get the business able to serve the number of customers or the more of like orders that come in. 

David: – So once you go into scale mode, for example, does it impact the quality of things that you deliver to your customers, because now you’re not hiring more, so there should be something that is a drawback, right, in terms of reducing the cost or what?

Alvin: – No, it’s not a drawback, it’s the difference between throwing money and hiring people just so that you can take on orders, and creating a system, so that- 

David: Oh, okay, the system.

Alvin: – Yeah, so the system isn’t a piece of software, it’s basically a systematic way of thinking about how to do things.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – Like you could hire 10 people and get them to say,

David: “I’ll take care of these orders,” or you can come up with a system and you very systematically look at what needs to be done.

Alvin: – Right.

Alvin: – Okay, so I’m an engineer as well, a programmer. And I look at it and then the system point of view,

like what comes in, what’s the input? How do you process it and then output? So in between, right, like it can be something as simple as like, boiling tea, for example.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – So if you want to boil tea and do it on a mass scale, right, that’s like a business, right, what’s involved? Like first, you get the teabags, you need to order in, then you boil it and then you need the cup and then you serve it. That process can be optimised. Like, do you do bulk ordering of the teabags? What’s the largest amount of time, I think it’s the water boiling, the boiling of the water, it takes time, if you do it per cup, then it’s going to waste a lot of time. But if you do it on mass, maybe use some water boiler, then you invest in equipment, the one that looks like hot water thingy- Mass boiler.- So just take every time.- Yeah, so, I mean, these are the things that you can potentially do on a business level, to systemize. And this is just a very, very, very simple example. – I think what you have is kind of like an operating system for business, right?

David: Something like the Windows 20 of business.

Alvin: – Yeah, okay. – I think I had more or less understood what you’re talking about and all that, and immediately prompted me to think about what are the things that we can do properly. – Because once you do this right, can you imagine it, so when I throw money at manpower, I basically say, “I need to boil water? Let’s hire like 10 people to boil water.”

David: – That’s bad.

Alvin: – Yeah, but rather than to do that, maybe I can do other things, like maybe I’ll boil one big batch first, and then you have the system where, okay, then every cup will come from a big batch and then one person, just one person who is continually boiling the water. Just a simple example, but that’s what I mean. So once that is kept in check right, then you don’t have the kind of cost overruns that you have when you’re in a growth stage.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – And then you have a system that takes care of things. So then you can increase the orders that you take on the revenue that you have.

David: – Okay, that’s cool, one more thing, just to ask.

Alvin: – Sure.

David: – Local hire versus overseas?

Alvin: – I don’t have a preference, for me, I guess, that’s why we have to go back to the hiring requirements and be sure of what you want.

David: – Right.

Alvin: – Because sometimes you don’t necessarily need to be geographically restrained.

David: – Yeah, right.

Alvin: – Like if I were to start a business again, right, I think it has to be remote based, the work has to be remote based. It has to be customer centric, of course, for sure. And it likely should be employee-owned also, like it has to be a business that has the employees being a real part of it, these are the things that we start to see trending.

David: – That’s what I always tell my staff also.

Alvin: “Oh yeah

David: you’re part of this, we own this thing together. We run this together.”

Alvin: So it boils back down to the purpose, right, the ownership as well, that’s something that gives people the reason why they are at a job. They’re not here just for the 9 to 5 and not just here for the salary every month, it’s for something more than that, and as a team, that’s something that can be done.

David: – Okay, so about your upcoming masterclass,

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Who is it for?

Alvin: – This is for business owners for entrepreneurs. I teach the 5E scale engine, I show them examples, case studies, exercises to get them to understand how to apply that to their own business.

David: – Do you go into their office or what?

Alvin: – No, it’s a masterclass, so it’s a two-day live event and people would sign up for that over Zoom, and I’ll just be teaching online.

David: – Oh, it’s over Zoom, is it the event, Oh, okay, Okay.

Alvin: So entrepreneurs? – Entrepreneurs, business owners, likely around like the 5, 6-figure mark and they are likely in the growth stage also and are trying to break out, so they want to find the systems, the processes to focus on to actually get them to scale the company.

Alvin: – Is there any, like what kind of business, what kind of business owners you want to work with? Or generally speaking, any kind of business also can?

Alvin: – Yeah, for the masterclass, it really applies to all kinds of businesses. These are fundamental business concepts that any business can appreciate. It’s how to think systematically so that you focus on the right things and you don’t get bogged down by distractions and really like to concentrate on what can get your business to scale instead of just like growing.

David: – Yeah, I think at the end of the day, if you look at it objectively, anybody also wants to scale their business from where they are right now to somewhere in the future, I think most of the attendees, they look at you as a kind of target healer, right. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that most people, they want to go to $30 million. Right, $32 million. So I think people who like enrolment for your class, right, I think, they are going to benefit a lot, I think, I personally think so, having known you for at least two years, I think the last time we had dinner. 

Alvin: – Yeah, that was at Kallang right?

David: – That was a long time ago. Yeah, so I think at the end of the day, you’re totally right, in terms of processes that are, the person, the business owners, right, they have to use, otherwise you’re just in the growth mode. And you don’t even have the chance to grow the company because you’re in a growth mode. Your profit is a lot lesser, and therefore, you don’t have enough profit to invest into the business. I think in the first place, it’s about unlocking the so-called profits, then to reinvest into the business, right that’s how it comes to scaling.

Alvin: – Yeah, stop people from working in the business and start getting them to work on a business instead as business owners and entrepreneurs. They need to work on the vision, the strategy. And that’s one of the main base pillars, right, envision.

 David: In versus on.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Working in or working on?

Alvin: – Yeah, so people have that problem.

David: – Okay, cool, so one last thing, one last thing. I said, I’ve got a lot of questions to ask you, apart from that shoe, which by the way is quite okay smelling. So the thing is that, what made you want to help all these business owners, is there reason why you want to help them?

Alvin: – Oh, I think it’s, again, that purpose, right? What is it that I can do? And now I’m actually at a stage where I really went through that process in the past 17 years, I have all these lessons, experiences, skills that I have, part of it also is for me to crystallise all of that and have that on paper. I think that’s something that I want to have.

David: – Leaving a legacy?

Alvin: – Oh, yeah, if I have a family, next time I think this is a gift of knowledge for them.

David: – Okay.

Alvin:- But more importantly, I know I can help the next generation of entrepreneurs. You know, one of my visions right now is to have that community be built so that, the 5E scale engine, what I can teach and coach them on, that can start building the community of the next generation of entrepreneurs so that they can start being successful, they can start scaling up. I think that would be great for everyone because as these people grow, the community benefits as well, and everyone benefits and everyone benefits.

David: – Are you going to turn this into a real book, like…

Alvin: – Yeah, something like what you have, cause that’s wow, I remember reading that.

David: – You read it?

Alvin: – Yeah, of course.

Alvin: I even left you to review, I was like-

David: – Oh yeah, you’re right, was it good or?

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Really? Is it understandable like normal?

Alvin: – Yeah, for sure that you had all these examples of like you going fishing, and I thought it was like, yeah, I thought that was a really, really good. Like it’s not a dummy dumb, but I think it puts the concepts like very abstract concepts into everyday kind of situation so that people can relate to them more. And I think it exactly addresses what needs to be done. It’s introducing what’s a very traditional industry into a very digital toolbox, a very digital kind of like methodology and combining it.

David: The main thing is if you read this as a brand new agent, would you think that you have the ability to go to the next level, by just reading, by just implementing the things I share inside?

Alvin: – Well, it doesn’t really have the specific steps.

David: – Yeah, exactly, right.

Alvin: – Yeah, but I think it shows people the possibilities that can be done.

David: – Yeah, I think I have purposely written it in such a way that it addresses the what, I don’t tell you the how and the why.

Alvin: – Yeah, we can’t like, even the playbook that I have, even a future book that I’ll put out, right, you wouldn’t be able to, imagine 17 years of knowledge, right, condense into a 200-page book, how’s that possible?

David: – Exactly, so, but if you want to know how, you can become our students, (laughs). Masterclass, two days, right?

Alvin: – Yes.

David: – Mine is a bit long, mine is seven days and two days overseas trip, which now we cannot do. It used to be, we have a mastermind overseas, we invite some of the top producers, students in our past to join us, and so there are some people who actually made a lot of money already using the methods that I teach. I tell you what I believe is that it’s going to happen soon is that some of this, this is going to be your first batch, right?

Alvin: – Hmm.

David: – So I believe some of these people who actually attend for this particular training that you have, they might then implement it, then you can feature some inside the book.

Alvin: – Yeah, exactly, so some of those people are entrepreneurs, I’ve been through it myself. They just need a way, a system, a process, and the reminder, to always like to focus on implementing the right things. And once you do that, there’s really nothing that keeps you.

David: – Let them buy more than one pair of shoes.

Alvin: – They can buy anything they want.

David: – Buy the Ferrari, right, buy the Lamborghini. Well, thanks a lot for your time, man. I mean, your time is super precious.

Alvin: – Yours as well.

David: – Yeah. Mine, mine is not so precious, mine is a lot less precious than your time. My time is cheap time, man, your time is $30 million. Okay, so thanks a lot for the time together at lunch, and we should do that more.

Alvin: – Yeah, I had fun.

David: – Yeah, lunch, and then this podcast, it means a lot to me. – To be frank,

Alvin: I hope it helps all your readers, your listeners.

David: – I think it works both ways, to me is like, I have somebody who is so comfortable, like to come and talk with me. I think it really helps a lot in terms of people who are viewing this, right, mostly they are property agents by the way. But there’s some of them who own a business apart from, like being just a property agent, as a matter of fact, you can just say that property agents are business owners.- Right.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: I believe that more or less everybody who does property, more or less has a process that they can improve and work on.

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Just that to go to $30 million is a bit challenging, right, for a property agent, but I think it’s possible to go to a few million dollars, right. So if you’re somebody who is watching this right now, a property agent, you’re a business owner, how do they contact you?

Alvin: – Oh my website is the best way, I’m also available on social media, Alvin Poh, my website is alvinpoh.com. So, they can get at alvinpoh.com/playbook.

David: – Yup, yeah.

David: – Oh yeah, yeah, so the playbook, you can get it at alvinpoh.com/playbook. – So just go ahead and download it. If you are somebody who has been following me a lot, I endorse him as my richest friend. Richest, or second richest friend, I better not offend the other guy, he’s very my good friend. He does like 1 million a month, so I better- – Yep, but my richest, or second richest friend. I’ve had a lot of, still feel a lot of about, I shouldn’t have said that. Don’t need to edit that away because I got a lot of rich friends apparently, and he’s very successful, young successful, he has a method. If you want to scale your business to the next level, just contact him, go to alvinpoh.com, go to his social media and find him, you’ll find a lot of his photos are actually about travelling around the world. And much recently, it’s more about Singapore, I think. I think, meet all his friends, so if you find Alvin Poh, the right one is actually on Instagram, you can find it’s like more than 10,000 followers over there. And I think just drop him a message or just whatever he will, you’ll answer them personally?

Alvin: – Yeah.

David: – Yeah, he’ll answer you personally, bring your business to the next level. If you need a business mentor, I think he’s the person to talk to or you can talk to me if you’re in real estate business. And you like the process itself because he is helping you to make the process better, mine is I give you the process so they can do it, if you’re a real estate agent, you have to bring a business to the next level, use digital marketing, you should definitely talk to me, right, and I’ll see how I can bring your business to the next level using what I teach. If you haven’t gotten yourself a book, yeah, you can get yourself a copy of my book, “The Internet Realtor,” Alvin read it, he endorses it as well.

Alvin: – Yes, for sure.

David: – I endorse that he’s endorsed my book before, so thanks for reading my book, it’s a lot of time spent over there, I appreciate it and I’ll the video that you created for me, thanks a lot Alvin for your time today. And I hope to meet you for lunch very soon again.

Alvin: – Sure, yeah, I had fun.

David: – Yeah, okay, see you guys.